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现实是:美国在搞社会主义、土鳖搞资本主义

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发表于 2013-11-8 12:24:19 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
这他妈都什么世道啊? 

美帝和土鳖都挂羊头卖狗肉,  美国奥主席领导大伙儿在搞社会主义、土鳖一党独裁的党妈妈领导大伙儿 搞资本主义

全乱套了
 楼主| 发表于 2013-11-8 13:34:54 | 显示全部楼层
发表于 2013-11-8 15:55:26 | 显示全部楼层

买买提右派的典型逻辑:一看到税收福利,立刻想到社会主义,立刻想到共产主义,立刻想到红色苏联,立刻想到邪恶独裁,立刻想到肃反屠杀。

这种人鲁迅早就批驳过了:一看到短袖衫,立刻想到白胳膊,立刻想到全裸体,立刻想到性交,立刻想到杂交,立刻想到私生子。
 楼主| 发表于 2013-11-8 17:18:36 | 显示全部楼层
kaleege 发表于 2013-11-8 15:55
买买提右派的典型逻辑:一看到税收福利,立刻想到社会主义,立刻想到共产主义,立刻想到红色苏联,立刻想 ...

你太牛逼了, 奥巴马公认极左的大政府、大福利被相当多数美国右派(极右 的偏激的美国茶叶党是典型, 但不光是茶叶党)讥讽为社会主义,  

到你嘴巴里面, 就成了 买买提右派了?

从上次 台北彩虹事件, 就发现你的扣帽子能力一流啊, 居然能指白为黑, 呵呵




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发表于 2013-10-28 22:19:36 | 只看该作者






baby 发表于 2013-10-28 22:06
从英文来看,三木的理解靠谱。

看上下文,这个手术应该是指变性手术。
强制手术大概就是指违背当事人意愿的变性手术。

我读不出来三木的猜测有靠谱的感觉,
整句话没有一个地方make sense。



发表于 2013-11-8 17:52:34 | 显示全部楼层
truesam 发表于 2013-11-8 17:18
你太牛逼了, 奥巴马公认极左的大政府、大福利被相当多数美国右派(极右 的偏激的美国茶叶党是典型, 但 ...

彩虹事件,我猜错了,行吧?只能说游行人这个诉求太不make sense,以至于我自认为对同志运动比较熟悉的人都觉得不make sense。你厉害,你猜对了。行吧?这叫扣帽子吗?你的猜测我觉得不靠谱,不make sense。是我的感觉,这跟帽子有什么关系?我觉得某某观点不make sense就叫做扣帽子?

这个帖子我又什么地方说错了,你举了个链接是买买提的链接,是个买买提的右派转发的文章,我评论说买买提右派如何如何又有什么错?至于别的右派怎么想?和我的评论有关系吗?我说买买提右派是这样,逻辑上难道就排除了别的右派都不是这样?再说了,你不去评论我贴子里面的重点:逻辑上无限延伸。就算我把买买提那三个字删除掉,贴子的意思也没多大变化。却吹毛求疵地抓住买买提三个字来反驳,有意思吗?
 楼主| 发表于 2013-11-8 20:11:11 | 显示全部楼层
kaleege 发表于 2013-11-8 17:52
彩虹事件,我猜错了,行吧?只能说游行人这个诉求太不make sense,以至于我自认为对同志运动比较熟悉的人 ...

小同学, 你不用着急。 听我慢慢说, 你扣帽子一点不假,  我一说 奥巴马搞社会主义, 你马上说:

买买提右派的典型逻辑:一看到税收福利,立刻想到社会主义,立刻想到共产主义,立刻想到红色苏联,立刻想到邪恶独裁,立刻想到肃反屠杀。

你这不是扣帽子是什么?

关于 奥巴马和社会主义, 咱们不用中文, 你搜索一下 英文:

does obama promote socialism

第一结果, 有七百多万文章讨论 奥巴马在搞 社会主义  (我当然不是赞成这种观点, 但是这是美国右派的一个很盛行的观点, 你非要扣上买买提右派),

典型的, 比如福布斯的:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/pete ... nalyze-obamanomics/



Is President Obama Really A Socialist? Let's Analyze Obamanomics







153 comments, 14 called-out  
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US President Barack Obama speaks during the Nu...
(Image credit: AFP/Getty Images via @daylife)

President Obama says that income taxes must be raised on the rich because they don’t pay their fair share.  The indisputable facts from official government sources say otherwise.

The CBO reports based on official IRS data that in 2009 the top 1% of income earners paid 39% of all federal income taxes, three times their share of income at 13%.  Yet, the middle 20% of income earners, the true middle class, paid just 2.7% of total federal income taxes on net that year, while earning 15% of income.  That means the top 1% paid almost 15 times as much in federal income taxes as the entire middle 20%, even though the middle 20% earned more income.





  
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Why America Is Going To Miss The Bush Tax Cuts  

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Policies Meant To Achieve Equality Are Very Unfair To The Least Equal  

Peter FerraraPeter Ferrara
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Peter FerraraPeter Ferrara
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Moreover, the official data, as reported by CBO and the IRS, show that the bottom 40% of income earners, instead of paying some income taxes to support the federal government, were paid cash by the IRS equal to 10% of federal income taxes as a group on net.

Any normal person would say that such an income tax system is more than fair, or maybe that “the rich” pay more than their fair share.  So why does President Obama keep saying that the rich do not pay their fair share?  Is he ignorant?  Wouldn’t somebody in his Administration whisper to him that he is peddling nonsense?

The answer is that to President Obama this is still not fair because he is a Marxist.  To a Marxist, the fact that the top 1% earn more income than the bottom 99% is not fair, no matter how they earn it, fairly or not.  So it is not fair unless more is taken from the top 1% until they are left only with what they “need,” as in any true communist system.  Paying anything less is not their “fair” share.  That is the only logical explanation of President Obama’s rhetoric, and it is 100% consistent with his own published background.

Notice that Obama keeps saying that “the rich,” a crass term implying low class social envy, don’t “need” the Bush tax cuts.  That is reminiscent of the fundamental Marxist principle, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.”

Good tax policy is not guided by “need.”  It is guided by what is needed to establish the incentives to maximize economic growth.  The middle class, working people and the poor are benefited far more by economic growth than by redistribution.  That is shown by the entire 20th century, where the standard of living of American workers increased by more than 7 times, through sustained, rapid economic growth.

But President Obama’s tax policy of increasing all tax rates on savings and investment will work exactly contrary to such economic growth.  It is savings and investment which creates jobs and increases productivity and wages.  Under capitalism, capital and labor are complementary, not adversarial, exactly contrary to the misunderstanding of Marxists. More capital investment increases the demand for labor, bidding up wages to the level of worker productivity, which is enhanced by the capital investment.

Increasing marginal tax rates on savings and investment, however, will mean less of it, not more.  That will mean fewer jobs, and lower wages, just as we have experienced so far under President Obama, with median household incomes (hello middle class) declining by 7.3% (a month’s worth of wages) during his first term, even faster after the recession supposedly ended in 2009.  That will only get worse in Obama’s unearned second term, which can only be explained as “democracy failure” analogous to “market failure.”

If the tax increases are limited to those who earn $1 million or more, I don’t know if that alone will be enough to create a recession, as I am certain would be the result with Obama’s original policy of targeting couples making over $250,000 a year, and singles making over $200,000.

But there is so much in the Obama economic program that is contractionary.  His second term promises enormous new regulatory burdens and barriers.  The EPA is shutting down the coal industry, and Interior will join with it to sharply constrain oil production further, despite Obama’s duplicitous campaign rhetoric taking credit for the production produced by the policies and efforts of others.  I expect Obama’s EPA to burden natural gas fracking until it goes the way of the coal industry as well, stealing new found prosperity for many Americans.  All of this will sharply raise energy prices, which will be another effective tax on the economy.

Moreover, President Obama has said that a priority in his second term will be global warming, even though global temperatures have not been increasing for 16 years now, and the developing world led by Brazil, Russia, India and China (the BRIC countries), which are contributing to “greenhouse gases” at a much greater accelerating rate than the U.S., have rejected sacrificing any slice of their economies to that ideological phantom.  While even the Democrat Congress of Obama’s first term failed to adopt “cap and trade,” EPA is advancing with global warming regulations that will cost the economy trillions in still another effective tax.

Then there are the onrushing regulatory burdens of Obamacare, including the employer mandate, which will require all businesses with 50 employees or more to buy the most expensive health insurance available.  That will be an effective tax on employment.  As Obamacare forces up the cost of health insurance, that will be still another effective tax increase on all employers already providing health coverage.  Hundreds of regulations still in the pipeline under the “Dodd-Frank” legislation are already forcing the financial sector to contract, and threaten the business and consumer credit essential to full recovery.

In addition, few are adequately considering the longer term contractionary effects of the Fed’s current policy mischief.  For years now, businesses and investments have been launched all over the country based on the near zero interest rates, and even below zero real rates, that Fed policies have perpetuated, along with the easy free money .  When those rates inevitably rise back to normal, most likely after these Fed policies have resparked inflation, the basis for those businesses and investments will be gone, and many if not most will go into liquidation, which will be highly contractionary as well.

However, I am certain in any event that the Obama tax increases will result in less revenue rather than more.  Obama has been proposing to increase the capital gains tax rate by 58% on the nation’s job creators, investors and successful small businesses, counting his Obamacare tax increases that take effect on January 1 as well the expiration of the Bush tax cuts.  While his misleading talking points say there will be no tax increases for 97% of small businesses, that counts every Schedule C filed for every part time or hobby sole proprietorship, however marginal the earnings.  The small businesses that would bear President Obama’s originally proposed tax increases earn 91% of all small business income, and employ 54% of the total private sector U.S. work force, as reported in Investors Business Daily on November 9.

Over the last 45 years, every time capital gains tax rates have been raised, revenues have fallen, and every time they have been cut, revenues have increased.  The capital gains rate was raised 4 times from 1968 to 1975, climbing from 25% to 35%.  The 25% rate produced real capital gains revenues in 1968 of $40.6 billion in 2000 dollars.  By 1975, at the higher rate, capital gains revenues had plummeted to $19.6 billion in constant 2000 dollars, less than half as much.

After the capital gains rate was cut from 35% to 20% from 1978 to 1981, capital gains revenues had tripled by 1986 compared to 1978.  Then the capital gains rate was raised by 40% in 1987 to 28%.  By 1991, capital gains revenues had collapsed to $34.4 billion, down from $92.9 billion in 1986, in constant 2000 dollars adjusted for inflation.

Obama’s capital gains tax increase next year will reduce capital gains revenues again as well.
  
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发表于 2013-11-8 20:26:00 | 显示全部楼层
我的理想社会就是:

每个人都有可以维持生活的基本物质条件,也就是说,必须有基本的住房、食物、医疗、教育。穷人如果找不到工作,社会有义务为其找工作。如果真的没有劳动能力,那么社会应该提供他们基本的福利。

但是,作为对价,接受福利者,应该遵守法纪,不扰乱社会治安。

 楼主| 发表于 2013-11-8 20:27:21 | 显示全部楼层
kaleege 发表于 2013-11-8 17:52
彩虹事件,我猜错了,行吧?只能说游行人这个诉求太不make sense,以至于我自认为对同志运动比较熟悉的人 ...

你应该看文章, 不看人, 说的有道理的地方, 学习, 没有道理的地方, 反驳之, 不要一上来:

买买提右派的典型逻辑:一看到税收福利,立刻想到社会主义,立刻想到共产主义,立刻想到红色苏联,立刻想到邪恶独裁,立刻想到肃反屠杀。

这种人鲁迅早就批驳过了:一看到短袖衫,立刻想到白胳膊,立刻想到全裸体,立刻想到性交,立刻想到杂交,立刻想到私生子。”

这里除了你自己说:“一看到税收福利,立刻想到社会主义,立刻想到共产主义,”  再没有任何人这么说, 更没有人否则资本主义也应该有福利税收,   如果你不同意这个指控, 请你举例说明:这里谁一看到税收福利,立刻想到社会主义,立刻想到共产主义?
 楼主| 发表于 2013-11-8 20:44:17 | 显示全部楼层
baby 发表于 2013-11-8 20:26
我的理想社会就是:

每个人都有可以维持生活的基本物质条件,也就是说,必须有基本的住房、食物、医疗、教 ...

嗯, 兼顾公平、正义和效益,  不错不错, baby不错
发表于 2013-11-9 01:37:56 | 显示全部楼层
truesam 发表于 2013-11-8 20:27
你应该看文章, 不看人, 说的有道理的地方, 学习, 没有道理的地方, 反驳之, 不要一上来:

买买提 ...

右派都是这样的,一说到增加福利,增加税收,就说是社会主义。
不管是买买提右派也罢,福布斯的右派也罢,都是一个腔调。
举个例子,典型的就是蚂蚱和老万。具体词句你需要的话,我可以到黑木崖给你找出来。

增加税收,增加福利,顶多只会变成北欧的社会民主主义。
北欧的社会民主主义,和苏联/中国的社会主义,有根本性的区别。
这里面的区别,右派要么不懂,要么不想搞懂,要么明明懂但是故意混淆,
故意把增税增福利说成是“社会主义”,其实就是把意思往苏联中国那里带,
言下之意就是说,你再增税增福利,就会变成苏联中国那样的独裁暴政。
如果你需要,我还可以把原话找出来,甚至都提到了中国或者苏联。
就是一看到白胳膊,立刻想到全裸体。

本来不是这个东西的,非得张冠李戴地给你一个“社会主义”的帽子戴。这才是扣帽子。
 楼主| 发表于 2013-11-10 07:45:07 | 显示全部楼层
kaleege 发表于 2013-11-9 01:37
右派都是这样的,一说到增加福利,增加税收,就说是社会主义。
不管是买买提右派也罢,福布斯的右派也罢 ...

七百多万篇文章, 这下子好, 统统都被你打成了右派。  凡是不和你心意的, 统统打成右派, 你其实比左派的毛主席还蛮横啊

我看“社会主义”这个词, 也不能让你们垄断定义,  由你来鉴定 说这个是社会主义, 那个不是社会主义。  社会主义又不是像你想象的, 是个贬义词(可能是你内心偏见

社会主义, 不光中国苏联这两种。大政府, 高福利,高税收,  政府管的过多过死, 就是社会主义的典型象征,  到了你嘴巴里面, 居然在  社会主义 之间, 塞进一个民主, 变成 社会民主主义
 楼主| 发表于 2013-11-10 07:53:46 | 显示全部楼层
kaleege 发表于 2013-11-9 01:37
右派都是这样的,一说到增加福利,增加税收,就说是社会主义。
不管是买买提右派也罢,福布斯的右派也罢 ...

我猜测, 可能有的无知的人骨子里面认为社会主义都是假丑恶, 所以一听说美国奥巴马主席要搞社会主义, 立即一蹦三尺高, 大帽子乱飞, 看都不看, 把7百万文章都统统打成右派?
发表于 2013-11-10 13:30:39 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 kaleege 于 2013-11-10 13:32 编辑
truesam 发表于 2013-11-10 07:45
七百多万篇文章, 这下子好, 统统都被你打成了右派。  凡是不和你心意的, 统统打成右派, 你其实比左派 ...

你没听说过社会民主主义,也就罢了,说是我塞进去的,我可承担不了这么大荣誉。
你要相信google上的数量,搜索一下obama social democracy,结果是40,000,000 results。比你的七百多万篇文章如何?
社会主义和社会民主主义的定义,不是我定义的,不是你定义的,老早就有了,社会民主党在欧洲各国都有,在法国英国德国瑞典都是政治主力大党,瑞典尤其典型。右派们如果多读读书,多学学政治,也不至于连社会民主主义都没听说过。
 楼主| 发表于 2013-11-10 14:04:14 | 显示全部楼层
kaleege 发表于 2013-11-10 13:30
你没听说过社会民主主义,也就罢了,说是我塞进去的,我可承担不了这么大荣誉。
你要相信google上的数量, ...

你中文理解有问题吧, 你看看我原话是怎么说的:
===================================
社会主义, 不光中国苏联这两种。大政府, 高福利,高税收,  政府管的过多过死, 就是社会主义的典型象征,  到了你嘴巴里面, 居然在  社会主义 之间, 塞进一个民主, 变成 社会民主主义
=====================================
我原话是说, 大政府, 高福利,高税收,  政府管的过多过死, 就是社会主义的典型象征, 我这里建议你不要把大政府, 高福利,高税收,  政府管的过多过死, 硬塞进一个民主, 说成是 社会民主主义的特征, 


你自己不懂什么是社会民主主义, 不要硬凸, 

你不懂什么是社会民主主义, 我给你一个链接, 不给你啰嗦:

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7 ... B%E4%B8%BB%E7%BE%A9

社会民主主义是一种在19世纪晚期和20世纪初期开始浮现的政治意识形态,是从马克思主义的支持者里分离出来的众多分支之一。主张应透过民主过程逐步进行变革,以建立一个奉行社会主义的社会。社会民主主义最初为马克思主义的一种形式,于1869年德意志社会民主工党成立后开始发展;此党最后演变为德国社会民主党。社会民主主义的思想不断发展,最后摒弃了军国主义、极权主义及革命,不再借由这些手段来达到政治变革。[1]社会民主主义者与民主社会主义者有共同的国际组织:社会党国际。最初社会民主主义包含了主张革命路线的社会主义者如罗莎·卢森堡和列宁,和其他主张渐进式改革的如爱德华·伯恩施坦、卡尔·考茨基和尚·饶勒斯。在第一次世界大战和俄国革命后,“社会民主主义”成了非革命路线的社会主义者专有的称呼。现代的社会民主主义强调透过立法过程以改革资本主义体制,使其更公平和人性化,至于原本理论上所追求的建立社会主义社会的理想,若非被彻底遗忘、便是被以资本主义的方式重新定义了。

社会民主主义一词也可以用来称呼另一种社会民主主义者所拥护的社会型态。社会民主主义和民主社会主义的共同组织社会党国际定义社会民主主义为代议民主制的一种模式,能够解决在一般自由民主制里所产生的问题。社会党国际强调以下原则:第一,“民主”、“正义”、“平等”-不只是个人的自由,也同时包含免于被歧视、机会均等和不要让控制生产工具的资本家滥用政治权力。第二,“平等”-意味着在法律前人人平等,而且基本的经济、文化、社会平等(并不是指经济、文化完全平等,而是差距较小,没有那么悬殊)是每个人个性和社会发展的前提,同时也要给予身心残障和其他社会条件不佳的人平等机会。第三、自由和平等不是矛盾的,平等是个人发展的条件,自由和平等是不可分割的。最后,要团结起来同情那些遭受不公正和不平等待遇的人[2]。

实行社会民主主义的典范国家是瑞典。瑞典在1990年代和2000年代发展得相当繁荣,虽然瑞典税率达57%,不过,瑞典经济发展得相当健全,从独资公司到跨国公司(如Saab、宜家、爱立信等),同时保持世界上最高的平均寿命,低失业率、低通货膨胀、低国债、低婴儿死亡率和低生活费,并据称拥有极高的经济增长。但另一方面,依据瑞典工会同盟的资料,瑞典有多达20%的工作年龄人口依赖社会救济过活,而且犯罪率自从1960年代以来持续攀升,过去十年甚至恶化得更为激烈。



 楼主| 发表于 2013-11-10 14:08:35 | 显示全部楼层
kaleege 发表于 2013-11-10 13:30
你没听说过社会民主主义,也就罢了,说是我塞进去的,我可承担不了这么大荣誉。
你要相信google上的数量, ...

咖哩个 你说: “你要相信google上的数量,搜索一下obama social democracy,结果是40,000,000 results。”

我一搜索, 没有四千万吗, 你能截图给我看看, 你这个四千万如何来的吗?

我相信 你不会连这个都说谎吧?

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发表于 2013-11-10 14:29:05 | 显示全部楼层
truesam 发表于 2013-11-10 14:08
咖哩个 你说: “你要相信google上的数量,搜索一下obama social democracy,结果是40,000,000 results ...



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 楼主| 发表于 2013-11-10 14:32:59 | 显示全部楼层

哈哈, 你的搜索结果比我多了一倍不止, 这个有趣
发表于 2013-11-10 14:34:23 | 显示全部楼层
truesam 发表于 2013-11-10 14:32
哈哈, 你的搜索结果比我多了一倍不止, 这个有趣

真奇怪了,你该不会是在网络审查的国内上的网吧?
 楼主| 发表于 2013-11-10 14:39:17 | 显示全部楼层
kaleege 发表于 2013-11-10 14:34
真奇怪了,你该不会是在网络审查的国内上的网吧?

可能google针对不同客户域名有不同标准也没准, 我等会到家里用comcast的网络查查,

我以前真没有注意到这个现象,   

发表于 2013-11-10 14:40:03 | 显示全部楼层
truesam 发表于 2013-11-10 14:04
你中文理解有问题吧, 你看看我原话是怎么说的:
========================== ...

你先把社会民主主义和社会主义之间的区别搞清楚吧。

社会主义,指现实中存在过的(不是指马克思主义理论上的),即苏联,中国,古巴,越南等国。典型特征就是暴力革命,阶级斗争,一党独裁。

社会民主主义,就是瑞典这个样子。瑞典也是高税收高福利,它和社会主义的根本区别就是民主,没有独裁,不崇尚暴力革命阶级斗争。

两个都是高税收高福利,凭什么就说obama搞高税收高福利就是社会主义,而不是明显更贴切的社会民主主义。你说右派硬给obama安上“社会主义”的帽子,是不是故意把意思往独裁暴力那个地方联想?

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